First response

I found Darnton's essay to be more successful in illuminating fairy tales as not just for children. The combination of Freudian analysis on Little Red Riding Hood as well as a broader examination of the oral tradition as it existed in Europe at the time this story began to circulate made me think of fairy tales the way I think about other, more literary fiction--organic, dynamic pieces that spring from conditions and circumstances affecting real people. In the same way that certain kinds of foods are used in recipes because they tend to absorb flavors in a particular fashion, fairy tales are a reflection of the time, place, and mindset of the storyteller. A retelling of Cinderella will be vastly different, depending on who is telling the story. Darnton takes this idea and examines it in clinical, analytical detail, to great effect.

Sorry this is so late, my internet keeps crashing...

Posts in time!

Great to see that most of you have your posts in on time. They make for very interesting reading!

Introduction

Hi, I'm Emily Schweickhardt.

I'm a senior English and Psychology double-major, an an Art History minor.

Bettelheim

The Struggle for Meaning essay convinced me more that fairy tales do go beyond children's entertainment.  Particularly the point that fairy tales teach about the inner problems of human beings, and about solutions to predicaments in society.  In other words, fairy tales do more than provide a moral education: they give children a chance to "understand himself in the complex world with which he must learn to cope."  Fairy tales are clearly more than entertainment if they have the ability to carry messages to the unconscious, preconscious, and conscious minds simultaneously.  The fact that fairy tales can address all sorts of deep and complex problems, such as "narcicisstic disappointments," "oedipal conflicts," :sibling rivalries," and so on, speaks in and of itself.  By providing grounds for resolution, fairy tales enable children to acquire satisfaction with themselves, Bettelheim states.  With such statements, Bettelheim makes it clear that fairy tales are more than entertainment, because they do more than simply arouse curiosity, which entertainment does: they allow the child to find meaning in life, which Bettelheim says is the most important and difficult task to successfully accomplish in the period of childhood.

Response #1

As I see it, the key difference between these two articles has to do with what they perceive their subject matter to be. While reading Bettelheim, it appears that the author is much more concerned with the stories we tell our children and how that relates to their psychological make up. While this may be an interesting topic, it is clear that he really isn't talking about fairy tales at all. He is interested in the popular versions of Red Riding Hood and why this story is better for young children than other stories parents may read, but in this analysis he doesn't really get to the root of what fairy tales are, rather what their modern transformation into children's stories can do for our kids. Darnton, on the other hand, sees this gap in Bettelheim's argument. There's nothing particularly wrong with Bettelheim's analysis of the effects of good stories on children, but the fact is that this argument really doesn't have anything to do with fairy tales at all, just children's stories, many of which may be derived from sources like the Grimms and Mother Goose. In Darnton's article, he focuses more on the anthropological importance and development of fairy tales: who told them, why they are what they are, how they were perceived by the audience, et cetera. This is a much better template to understanding these tales and their unique place in the history of oral and written literature. Darnton sees fairy tales as what they really are and tries to understand them in that light rather than going down Bettelheim's road of placing other meanings on a particularly recent incarnation of these stories. In the end, Darnton's view provides a much richer and more accurate way of seeing fairy tales both within and out of their historical contexts. Fairy tales are evolving, vague, unique, enriching, sometimes unsettling, and thoughtful pieces of history, not merely bedtime stories to keep our kids from growing up crazy.

-Benton Payne

PS-

I'm Benton Payne (first name is Marshall, though I don't go by it)
I'm a Film Studies / History Major and I'm always looking for different ways to perceive the art of storytelling

Response # 1

Many people believe this is where the fairy tale tradition all began. Robert Darnton discusses the long historical tradition of fairy tales that extends centuries before the Brothers Grimm. In the early days of fairy tales, they were used for entertainment for adults. In France, the first collection of stories was printed for the courtiers. The stories were raunchier and there was no need for symbolism it seemed. These older tales were often watched as performances for all ages. They as Darnton says "were meant to amuse adults or to frighten children" (287). In France, the veillee was an institution that allowed men and women to work while tales were performed aloud. The purpose of these older stories was far from being children's entertainment alone. Darnton points out that many recurring themes were that of rape, sodomy, incest, and cannibalism. This seems very different from the stories I heard growing up. This evolution of the stories shows the long history of these tales. The stories were preserved over the centuries because of the cultural significance. Many of the storytellers adapted their versions to fit the people and places with which the audience would be familiar. The long historical tradition that Darnton illustrates is clear evidence that these stories are much more than just children's entertainment. While Bettleheim gives evidence to the fact that these stories are important for the development of children, I felt that Darnton gave a more helpful in seeing fairy tales in a different light rather than for the sole purpose of amusing children.

Response 1- Nikki

I took this question as being asked which essay helped me look beyond fairy tales as childrens' entertainment. For me, this was Robert Dartons' essay entitled "Peasant's Tell Tales: The Meaning of Mother Goose". With this essay, a lot of connotations that different cultures have about fairy tales were brought up, many of them sexual. This was not what I would interpret these fairy tales as at first glance, although I can see where they can make it work in these contexts. I have always thought of fairy tales as picture books and disney movies. This lets me see beyond the ordinary so-called "stereotypes" and "assumptions" I may have towards the genre of fairy tales. From the point of view of this article, these are definitely not just the children's stories that we know and love!

Initially, I thought this question was asking which essay is more helpful in illustrating that fairy tales can be more than children's entertainment - as in fairy tales can be geared towards adults as well. In this sense, Robert Darnton's essay, "Peasants Tell Tales: The Meaning of Mother Goose" was helpful because this essay started off with an 18th century French version of "Little Red Riding Hood." It was very Rated "R"-esque (or maybe PG-13 according to today's standards, who knows...) with all the cutting up bodies, draining blood, cannibalism, and the striptease. I've never heard this version of Little Red Riding Hood, and this version clearly illustrated that some fairy tales were definitely not geared towards children.

Darnton's essay also points out other, earlier versions of fairy tales like "Bluebeard" and "Sleeping Beauty." The subjects of rape, sodomy, incest, and cannibalism is definitely not suitable for children and through this essay, I can definitely see that fairy tales can be much more than children's entertainment.

But after reading Bettelheim's essay, I understood that the blog question for today was not just asking us to look for which essay helped to show that fairy tales could be geared towards adults as well as children, but actually meant for us to see which essay showed that fairy tales were more than children's entertainment - as in fairy tales could be educational/integral to the development of children as well as be entertaining.

Bettelheim definitely made a great point by showing how the content of fairy tales is at the same time entertaining and engaging but also stimulates children's imaginations, illustrate to children potential dilemmas and difficulties they might face in real life, and also help children to have confidence in their ability to face and resolve these difficulties.


So I guess my answer to today's blog question would depend on how you interpret it.
To me, Darnton's essay is more effective than Bettelheim's essay in showing that fairy tales can be geared towards adults as well as children, but Bettelheim's essay is definitely better at illustrating the educational as well as entertainment value that fairy tales have for children.

Assignment 1- 13.Jan 2009

Hi , Erin, Marshall, Michelle, Nikki and Tiffany,


Below you will find the question to which all of you must post one response by Tuesday Midnight.

On Wednesday, there will be four posts to read, since you have four group mates. Read through their responses and comment on at least two of them. You could agree, disagree, pose a related question and try to build on what the other person has said.

By Wednesday Midnight, you will have to have posted the comments, so that I can look through what you have written, and forward interesting posts/comments to Prof. Figal.

THE QUESTION FOR 13.JANUARY 2009:

Which of the following two essays do you find more productive in helping you to think about fairy tales as more than children's entertainment? Why?


Darnton, Robert. “Peasants Tell Tales: The Meaning of Mother Goose,” in Tatar, The Classic Fairy Tales
or
Bettelheim, Bruno. “The Struggle for Meaning,” in Tatar, The Classic Fairy Tales


Looking forward to your responses!

Ann

Introduction

My name is Tiffany Dempsey. I am a sophomore History/Art History major.

Introduction

Nikki Moss

Junior

Early Childhood Education/Child Studies

Children's Lit Fanatic

Introductions - Michelle Kim

Name: Michelle Kim
Year: Senior, 2009

School of Engineering
Major: Engineering Science

I am taking this class because I really do love fairy tales - the Disney versions and the original versions!

This is a random video from Youtube